Discussion:
Trouble sending news on nntp.aioe.org in Windows 10.
(too old to reply)
Jean-Pierre Coulon
2020-08-02 12:06:36 UTC
Permalink
It works with Windows XP (this post) but with my new computer in Windows
10 it says Error connecting to news server: can't connect to
nntp.aioe.org, 119: timed out.

Reading news works fine with this new computer. Am I the only one?

I copied the pinerc file from the Windows XP computer.
--
Jean-Pierre Coulon
Eduardo Chappa
2020-08-03 07:00:27 UTC
Permalink
It works with Windows XP (this post) but with my new computer in Windows 10
timed out.
Reading news works fine with this new computer. Am I the only one?
I copied the pinerc file from the Windows XP computer.
Hard to tell. I added this nntp server to the NNTP server variable as

NNTP server = nntp.aioe.org

and it allowed me to read and reply to your message. Maybe there is a
firewall or other reason external to Alpine preventing the connection?
--
Eduardo
Jean-Pierre Coulon
2020-08-05 17:23:35 UTC
Permalink
Now it works!
--
Jean-Pierre Coulon
Barry Landy
2020-08-19 07:12:42 UTC
Permalink
I used to use aioe but it eventually gave up on me bigtime so I moved to
eternal.september (free).

On Wed, 5 Aug 2020, Jean-Pierre Coulon wrote:

:>Now it works!
:>
:>
--
Barry Landy Email: Remove nospam in from address
192, Gilbert Road, Cambridge CB4 3PB
Jean-Pierre Coulon
2020-08-19 09:18:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Barry Landy
I used to use aioe but it eventually gave up on me bigtime so I moved to
eternal.september (free).
Is it the address I have to put into the nntp field of Alpine or is it a
web site you have to consult? Please provide the precise link.
--
Jean-Pierre Coulon
Barry Landy
2020-08-21 14:07:10 UTC
Permalink
I have

news.eternal-september.org/nntp/user=xxxx

in the server field and #news. in the path field

On Wed, 19 Aug 2020, Jean-Pierre Coulon wrote:

:>On Wed, 19 Aug 2020, Barry Landy wrote:
:>
:>> I used to use aioe but it eventually gave up on me bigtime so I moved to
:>> eternal.september (free).
:>
:>Is it the address I have to put into the nntp field of Alpine or is it a web
:>site you have to consult? Please provide the precise link.
:>
:>
--
Barry Landy Email: Remove nospam in from address
192, Gilbert Road, Cambridge CB4 3PB
Adam H. Kerman
2020-08-21 14:25:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jean-Pierre Coulon
I have
news.eternal-september.org/nntp/user=xxxx
in the server field and #news. in the path field
:>>I used to use aioe but it eventually gave up on me bigtime so I moved to
:>>eternal.september (free).
:>Is it the address I have to put into the nntp field of Alpine or is it a web
:>site you have to consult? Please provide the precise link.
You're top posting and using a two-character proprietary quote-level
indicator ":>". That is super-annoying. Please don't do that.

When you use a two-character proprietary quote-level indicator, everyone
reading your followup loses track of who said what.

Just use a single ">", and don't top post. Please?
Eduardo Chappa
2020-08-21 16:29:28 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 21 Aug 2020, Adam H. Kerman wrote:

:) You're top posting and using a two-character proprietary quote-level
:) indicator ":>". That is super-annoying. Please don't do that.
:)
:) When you use a two-character proprietary quote-level indicator, everyone
:) reading your followup loses track of who said what.
:)
:) Just use a single ">", and don't top post. Please?

I support Barry. I do not agree on policing posts. To me it was clear what
Barry said, and a human can clearly identify the quoted text. As long as
the message is reasonably readable, I see no problem wih it.

On the other hand, I am not sure if this is the place to discuss things
like this. If you would like to discuss them further, do not hesitate to
send me an email. I'll be happy to defend this point.
--
Eduardo
https://tinyurl.com/yc377wlh (web)
http://repo.or.cz/alpine.git (Git)
Adam H. Kerman
2020-08-21 17:50:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eduardo Chappa
:) You're top posting and using a two-character proprietary quote-level
:) indicator ":>". That is super-annoying. Please don't do that.
:) When you use a two-character proprietary quote-level indicator, everyone
:) reading your followup loses track of who said what.
:) Just use a single ">", and don't top post. Please?
I support Barry. I do not agree on policing posts.
I made a request. That's not what "policing" means.
Post by Eduardo Chappa
To me it was clear what Barry said, and a human can clearly identify
the quoted text.
It wouldn't be clear if those proprietary quote level indicators were
quoted several followups later, nor would reading order be clear given
that the OP changed from bottom posting to top posting, and subsequent
followups would be bottom posted. You didn't address that major point.

I'll note that you excised the quotes with the OP's proprietary quote
level indicators from other precursor articles in the thread. You also
excised the OP's own top-posted quote.

Eduardo, your own actions demonstrate that you agree with me, given that
you removed quotes that weren't clearly attributed, plus the conflicting
quote order.
Post by Eduardo Chappa
As long as the message is reasonably readable, I see no problem wih it.
Readibility includes making it quite clear to the reader who wrote what,
and not to make additional work for anyone posting a followup, requiring
extra steps to make it clear who wrote what to change quote level
indicators back to something conventional.
Post by Eduardo Chappa
On the other hand, I am not sure if this is the place to discuss things
like this.
I raised the issue in the thread to which it applies. My call.
Post by Eduardo Chappa
If you would like to discuss them further, do not hesitate to
send me an email. I'll be happy to defend this point.
But your typical manner of quoting in followup when you're not admonishing me
clearly attributes quotes to their authors.

You've made your position clear previously that you don't care how people
format the body of their articles or the body of their email messages
as long as it's not nonstandard. I am well aware of your stubborness on
this point. I am similarly stubborn that when posting to a mass medium
of communication like Usenet or a mailing list, attribution lines should
match quote levels in a conventional manner, and reading order should
not be changed to a mix of bottom posting and top posting.

Just because the formatting of the followup or reply isn't nonstandard
doesn't mean the author should do it.
Eduardo Chappa
2020-08-21 19:17:29 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 21 Aug 2020, Adam H. Kerman wrote:

:>>To me it was clear what Barry said, and a human can clearly identify
:>>the quoted text.
:>
:>It wouldn't be clear if those proprietary quote level indicators were
:>quoted several followups later, nor would reading order be clear given
:>that the OP changed from bottom posting to top posting, and subsequent
:>followups would be bottom posted. You didn't address that major point.

Actually, you can train your brain to read anything. It does not take much
effort to read quoted text. Don't underestimate your brain abilities.

:>I'll note that you excised the quotes with the OP's proprietary quote
:>level indicators from other precursor articles in the thread. You also
:>excised the OP's own top-posted quote.
:>
:>Eduardo, your own actions demonstrate that you agree with me, given that
:>you removed quotes that weren't clearly attributed, plus the conflicting
:>quote order.

I removed text that was not relevant to my text. Do not attribute
intentions to my actions. I keep only the text to which I am replying.
Nothing more.

:>>As long as the message is reasonably readable, I see no problem wih it.
:>
:>Readibility includes making it quite clear to the reader who wrote what,
:>and not to make additional work for anyone posting a followup, requiring
:>extra steps to make it clear who wrote what to change quote level
:>indicators back to something conventional.

You are asking for too much about readability. Readability means it can be
reasonably infered what was intended. I did, and so did you.

:>>On the other hand, I am not sure if this is the place to discuss things
:>>like this.
:>
:>I raised the issue in the thread to which it applies. My call.

Raising an issue is different than continuing to argue it. This is not the
place to raise such issues, this is the place to discuss issues abut
Alpine, not about your ideas of quoting.

:>>If you would like to discuss them further, do not hesitate to send me
:>an email. I'll be happy to defend this point.
:>
:>But your typical manner of quoting in followup when you're not
:>admonishing me clearly attributes quotes to their authors.

I agree, but I am free to change my mind at any time. I do not have to
follow what I did in the past, or accept anyone trying to tell me what to
do. That's my decision.

:>You've made your position clear previously that you don't care how
:>people format the body of their articles or the body of their email
:>messages as long as it's not nonstandard. I am well aware of your
:>stubborness on this point. I am similarly stubborn that when posting to
:>a mass medium of communication like Usenet or a mailing list,
:>attribution lines should match quote levels in a conventional manner,
:>and reading order should not be changed to a mix of bottom posting and
:>top posting.

You can be all stubborn as you would like. That is fine. Just do not post
such things in a place whose purpose is to talk about Alpine. Not about
proper quoting. I really mean it: if you want to continue this, let us d
it over email. I am happy to be called stubborn there too. Just let pepple
communicate how they feel it is appropriate. No harm was done, and you are
making people less prone to speaking because you have a strong opinion
about a trivial matter. Again, let us continue this over email please. Let
this forum be a discussion about Alpine.

:>Just because the formatting of the followup or reply isn't nonstandard
:>doesn't mean the author should do it.

I agree, I also agree to concluding that "doesn't mean the authour should
not do it".
--
Eduardo
https://tinyurl.com/yc377wlh (web)
http://repo.or.cz/alpine.git (Git)
Adam H. Kerman
2020-08-21 22:55:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eduardo Chappa
:>>To me it was clear what Barry said, and a human can clearly identify
:>>the quoted text.
:>It wouldn't be clear if those proprietary quote level indicators were
:>quoted several followups later, nor would reading order be clear given
:>that the OP changed from bottom posting to top posting, and subsequent
:>followups would be bottom posted. You didn't address that major point.
Actually, you can train your brain to read anything. It does not take much
effort to read quoted text. Don't underestimate your brain abilities.
:>I'll note that you excised the quotes with the OP's proprietary quote
:>level indicators from other precursor articles in the thread. You also
:>excised the OP's own top-posted quote.
:>Eduardo, your own actions demonstrate that you agree with me, given that
:>you removed quotes that weren't clearly attributed, plus the conflicting
:>quote order.
I removed text that was not relevant to my text. Do not attribute
intentions to my actions. I keep only the text to which I am replying.
Nothing more.
Of course it was relevant to my point use of one's own quote level
indicators just to be different doesn't make it clear who said what
after it gets quoted a bit.

Here, you sort of provided an example even though you didn't retain
all the attribution lines correspnding to retained quotes.

Not sure how a lack of attribution improves readability.

The rest snipped as it's just rehashing of what already been said.
William Unruh
2020-08-21 19:40:58 UTC
Permalink
There is a difference between a demand and a preference. He might have a
preference for a certain quote style/order, or his software might, but
that does not mean that he asks or assumes that everyone else will have
that same preference. Just because I like Merlot, does not mean that I
demand/request that everyone else share my likes. And if I serve you
Merlot, I am not hurt if you refuse to drink it. But I would consider
you pretty rude if you said-- I do not like Merlot, why don't you serve Pinot
Noir instead.
So, I am not going to use :) or Tab as a quote designator, but, unless
it makes the post very hard to read, I will not request that everyone
uses > instead. If he uses the string "Abracadabra" as his quote
character, I may well point out that this makes his posts very difficult
to read or follow. With a reasonable quote character indicating the depth of
quotes, whether he does top, bottom, interleaved,... responses is really
not very important. And if I find it hard to read
)
wordorder
Chinese
to
switches
suddenly
he
if
Like
(

(ie, bottom to top in column of the page)

werbeH ro

I might well say that I, having been trained in other orders, I find
that very hard to read.
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by Eduardo Chappa
:) You're top posting and using a two-character proprietary quote-level
:) indicator ":>". That is super-annoying. Please don't do that.
:) When you use a two-character proprietary quote-level indicator, everyone
:) reading your followup loses track of who said what.
:) Just use a single ">", and don't top post. Please?
I support Barry. I do not agree on policing posts.
I made a request. That's not what "policing" means.
Post by Eduardo Chappa
To me it was clear what Barry said, and a human can clearly identify
the quoted text.
It wouldn't be clear if those proprietary quote level indicators were
quoted several followups later, nor would reading order be clear given
that the OP changed from bottom posting to top posting, and subsequent
followups would be bottom posted. You didn't address that major point.
I'll note that you excised the quotes with the OP's proprietary quote
level indicators from other precursor articles in the thread. You also
excised the OP's own top-posted quote.
Eduardo, your own actions demonstrate that you agree with me, given that
you removed quotes that weren't clearly attributed, plus the conflicting
quote order.
Post by Eduardo Chappa
As long as the message is reasonably readable, I see no problem wih it.
Readibility includes making it quite clear to the reader who wrote what,
and not to make additional work for anyone posting a followup, requiring
extra steps to make it clear who wrote what to change quote level
indicators back to something conventional.
Post by Eduardo Chappa
On the other hand, I am not sure if this is the place to discuss things
like this.
I raised the issue in the thread to which it applies. My call.
Post by Eduardo Chappa
If you would like to discuss them further, do not hesitate to
send me an email. I'll be happy to defend this point.
But your typical manner of quoting in followup when you're not admonishing me
clearly attributes quotes to their authors.
You've made your position clear previously that you don't care how people
format the body of their articles or the body of their email messages
as long as it's not nonstandard. I am well aware of your stubborness on
this point. I am similarly stubborn that when posting to a mass medium
of communication like Usenet or a mailing list, attribution lines should
match quote levels in a conventional manner, and reading order should
not be changed to a mix of bottom posting and top posting.
Just because the formatting of the followup or reply isn't nonstandard
doesn't mean the author should do it.
Carlos E.R.
2020-08-22 01:24:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by Eduardo Chappa
:) You're top posting and using a two-character proprietary quote-level
:) indicator ":>". That is super-annoying. Please don't do that.
:) When you use a two-character proprietary quote-level indicator, everyone
:) reading your followup loses track of who said what.
:) Just use a single ">", and don't top post. Please?
I support Barry. I do not agree on policing posts.
I made a request. That's not what "policing" means.
I'll say that it is confusing, because my nntp reader shows those ":)"
above as graphics of a smiling face in shiny yellow.

If some software doesn't recognize a quote as a quote, there is a problem.

Me, I prefer a quoting in Fidonet style, with the initials of the
correspondent in front:

SG>> bla bla bla

but I do not use it because software doesn't recognize it, and while
replying can reflow the quotes making the strange chars in the middle
Post by Adam H. Kerman
bla bla SG>> bla
which is very confusing. So, I don't do it.
--
Cheers, Carlos.
Eduardo Chappa
2020-08-22 17:24:09 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 22 Aug 2020, Carlos E.R. wrote:

:) On 21/08/2020 19.50, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
:) > Eduardo Chappa <***@washington.edu> wrote:
:) >> On Fri, 21 Aug 2020, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
:) >
:) >> :) You're top posting and using a two-character proprietary
:) >> :) quote-level indicator ":>". That is super-annoying. Please don't
:) >> :) do that.
:) >
:) >> :) When you use a two-character proprietary quote-level indicator,
:) >> :) everyone reading your followup loses track of who said what.
:) >
:) >> :) Just use a single ">", and don't top post. Please?
:) >
:) >> I support Barry. I do not agree on policing posts.
:) >
:) > I made a request. That's not what "policing" means.
:)
:) I'll say that it is confusing, because my nntp reader shows those ":)"
:) above as graphics of a smiling face in shiny yellow.
:)
:) If some software doesn't recognize a quote as a quote, there is a
:) problem.
:)
:) Me, I prefer a quoting in Fidonet style, with the initials of the
:) correspondent in front:
:)
:) SG>> bla bla bla
:)
:) but I do not use it because software doesn't recognize it, and while
:) replying can reflow the quotes making the strange chars in the middle
:)
:) > bla bla SG>> bla
:)
:) which is very confusing. So, I don't do it.

I understand why you do not do it. Humans can distinguish clearly what
quoted-text, and what is not. Programs, however, might have more trouble.
In order to address this issue, I wrote a patch for Alpine that recognizes
extra quote strings, and every single situation that you mention in this
post would be taken care of. I have not had reports of bugs in years. The
patch can be found at

http://alpine.x10host.com/alpine/info/fillpara.html

Other software can do something similar.
--
Eduardo
https://tinyurl.com/yc377wlh (web)
http://repo.or.cz/alpine.git (Git)
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